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Robert Sankara Moses has 50 years’ experience as a teacher of yoga and advaita vedanta. Born in South Africa, Robert studied architecture, travelled abroad and, in 1972, discovered yoga in the tradition of Swami Sivananda of Rishikesh, India. He served in the International Sivananda Yoga Vedanta Centers for 22 years, teaching yoga teacher training and advanced training courses worldwide. He founded and continues to co-publish Namarupa: Categories of Indian Thought, a magazine about the philosophies and arts of India. Robert leads annual pilgrimages to sacred places of India.


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Robert 0:01
Everyone is measured by their gross national product, how much they can produce and consume. All the little purposes are to no avail

Avi 0:10
that to see through the lens of wonder and an awe,

Robert 0:16
no striving, no regretting, no desiring,

Avi 0:20
just being connected and reflecting on how I feel for me will lead me towards growth.

Robert 1:03
I'm sahana lava to Serrano boo not to sa ve got a high age ISV novelty term as to mA v v Chava. Hi, V. m. Sha de Sha Shanti Shanti Shanti namaha.

Avi 1:42
Om Shanti Thank you so much. It was wonderful, Robert. Welcome everyone. very honored to be joined today by Robert Moses. And to read a little bit about Robert. He has 50 years experience as a teacher of yoga and advisory Vedanta. Born in South Africa, Robert studied architecture traveled abroad and in 1972 discovered yoga and the tradition of Swami shivananda of Ricky Rishi cash. He served in the international shivananda Yoga Vedanta centers for 22 years teaching yoga teacher trainings and advanced training courses worldwide. He also founded and continues to co publish nama Rupa, categories of Indian thought, a magazine about the philosophies and arts of India. Robert also leads annual pilgrimages to sacred places of India. So Robert, once again, thanks so much for taking the time to be here today. Thank you. All right, I like to dive right in with with this question. What matters to you?

Robert 2:52
Good question, difficult to answer. All right, yes, there are a lot of levels of things that matter. And what I've come to understand is that it's important to keep one's mind or I find it's important to keep my mind on the notion that the entire universe, perceived through our senses, is rarely a kind of, to put it comically a show, and that the inner perceiver of that show, which you can call soul, or self or consciousness, is the supreme reality of being, and that all things would be if they could be focused on that thought, or beyond that thought, we would basically have inner peace, happiness, and a sense of fulfillment. That is a very, very, very difficult thing to do. Because we are completely enthralled and hypnotized by and immersed in the daily act of living, saying that daily active living, there are many, many important things. And probably, and maybe selfishly Asli I feel that maintaining my mental balance and health is extremely important, not only for my sense of being, but in order to be a amenable person around my family and friends and relatives and people that I should happen to meet out and about. So keeping that in mind. There's so many levels of importance and things that matter within that framework,

Avi 5:03
the first thing that you mentioned, you know, being being the perceiver, witnessing the the play of what's happening, just watch watching it all. Does that connect to the second part of being amenable to your friends to kind of existing in a healthier way? Is there a connection between those two things?

Robert 5:27
Yeah, that's a good thing. I think they're totally connected, because we can't really feel empathy, we can't really feel you know, communication value with everyone around us, if we are not keeping our mind on the notion that comes from that first thing, I said that actually, those other people are really me and I am them. And we're all connected. So keeping one in mind, and I think the important thing to keep in mind is the sort of unbelievable mystery of the universe to which really none of us have any real answer, if we keep that in mind that where did this come from, that is the real thing, what happens, what is going to happen if my body dies, that is the real thing and all these things, keeping that as one's mental focus, or thought focus, it will lead to a better understanding with others, when they are having difficulties or problems or we are having interpersonal difficulties or problems, or people have ill health or sicknesses which are, you know, difficult to understand where they sprout from. So I find always myself, I go back to this thought that the universe is a manifestation of something of which I have no idea why. But it is something that is fulfilling in its own self it is, it has its own sense of purpose. In other words, there's no purpose to the things that we're doing other than just to be a part of this universal sense of purpose. So trying to keep that in mind, in a daily interactions is very, very helpful. I find.

Avi 7:35
Yeah, the word that comes to mind is perspective. Sorry, is having having this perspective makes makes all the difference in even just day to day activities, if I can, if I can keep that perspective. Present. Absolutely. I wanted wanted to ask about, you know, you mentioning that you have no idea. what's what's going on. Right? Like this, this unknowing, right? Is that something that that you kind of that you discovered that you fell into when you were younger? Did you want to know answers? Did you think that you knew a lot more, and you've come now, to a place where you can, you can simply rest in the mystery? And it's okay with you not to know.

Robert 8:22
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I've gone through many stages of this. There was definitely one stage and I absolutely thought I knew, you know, what all this was about. But I realized now that basically, and also that initial spark did come from a place of trying to find out, like looking at the stars, and how far do they go? And where is the end of that? And how many are there? And also sort of turning that gaze back and said, Well, we adjusted the minutus, spec, and all of that, and now with our modern day, ability to see, and to calculate distances in space, we find that we're almost absolutely nothing in this vast universe. So to fathom how did all this vast universe I know sciences came from a big bang. But obviously, the question is, where did that big bang come from? So there really is no way that I've ever been able to get my mind to logically follow anything, you know, scientifically or logically or philosophy philosophically, to understand the nature of that awesome mystery of the universe. Why is it here? How did we come here? How did we evolved to the way that we are now and all these questions are just nothing but a huge mystery. Our only glimpse I've found for myself is every And then I sort of sense the awesomeness of that, not the understanding of what it is, but the awesomeness of it. And then in the next moment, of course, it's gone, because I'm trying to figure out, well, where did it actually come from?

Avi 10:21
It seems amazing to me that like this process of moving between states of being, you know, that we can go go through, like one One moment, I'm, there seems to be no self, in terms of my personality, let, let go. And I feel connected to the whole universe. And then the next minute, you know, I'm having a conversation with someone, and we're talking about you and me, and you did this. And I did that. And all that, and this movement between these perspectives and ways waves of being like, Do you find that, that there's a purpose to that, to that to that movement that fluctuation that happens? If you have what might that purpose be?

Robert 11:04
Yeah, I mean, it probably is a purpose in that. One way, I try to sometimes try to understand this, as I think of myself, say, I, if they were a big being looking down on the earth, and we are sort of like as if we were looking down on a trail of ants. So then soul moving around, and every now and then they bump into each other, and then they carry on moving. So if we were above the earth and looking down with see highways and byways and planes flying and things go hang around, and every now and then, you know, two of these tiny little things would stick their feelers together and then carry on? Well, it turns out that what the answer doing is telling each other where there's food, basically, and how to keep on the track. But what people are doing, we're just like this moving around on the planet Earth. And as far as we know, right now, we sort of the only beings in this vast cosmos, I'm not sure that there are others. But definitely, it is so big, that there's got to be something else out there. So when we bump into each other, or connect with each other, or groups of people do that, the purpose is, as far as I can see, is just to bring a balance to the whole thing. And that balance doesn't necessarily mean a perfect equilibrium. It could be a whole massive chaos, seeming chaos, but as a whole, if we can sense ourselves as at Whole, rather than the individual, there is the balance of the whole thing. So there is to answer your question. From my point of view, a purposeless purpose. Purpose is simply to be a part of this whole interaction, when each one of us as an individual is thinking that we are doing something within that in order to do something else. Off often we are creating a seeming inbounds in that because we rarely don't see the whole thing. We just see our little part of it. So we might do an action which we think is very good, helpful action that might bring a discord in somewhere down the trail there something else might happen. So to sum up, what I've just tried to say is that from what I've understood so far, is there is actually no purpose to being other than just for me to understand that I am the whole thing, the beginning, the ongoing, the seeming, where's it from, etc. But within that, all the little purposes are to no avail because they never lead anywhere. So a purposeless universe has a supreme purpose. And funnily enough, strangely, from what I understand, so far, is the human body has got itself arranged in such a way that it can possibly die CERN, this purpose. Again, why and how, I don't know. But supposedly, it is arranged the nervous system, and the flow of energy in it is arranged in such a way that it can understand its purpose of being in this purposeless universe.

Avi 14:58
Is that a great gift to be able to understand that to feel I am, I'm a part of everything. I am everything and I'm a part of everything like is that like the supreme gift to have that experience?

Robert 15:14
Yeah, I guess it must be complete completely Supreme, if we can. But we got to let go of the notion that I am having that experience because it's the I am having that experience that seemingly is what is actually prohibiting us from just experiencing that sense. So that it's like

Avi 15:42
the, the the experiences is just happening. It's just happening. This is like allowing the process to me is it just feels it feels so refreshing. to to to allow, like, Can you imagine a time in the future where it would just be obvious for human beings to, to just acknowledge that, that of course, we're just we're allowing this life thing that's happening, we found ourselves here were a part of this process. We're just we're just letting letting it all happen that that humans could exist with this sense of lightness, for the human experience.

Robert 16:25
Yeah, that would be totally awesome. I was reading a an article in the sun magazine, or the you know, the sun magazine has an article about fungi. And this guy who is totally into learning about fungi, so you know, what it turns out is that the rock on which we are this earth, which was really cooking, that the Big Bang tie took off, was just as Moulton thing which solidified. And then within that, you know, somehow these unicellular things started arranging themselves somehow or other, but sooner or later, meaning millions and trillions of years later, you got these fungi growing. And then these fungi, you know, they started off in the ocean, and then they crept onto the land, etc, basically took this rock and made it into what it is right now. So, you know, with plants and trees and various different animals, and so they somehow were able to work with this rock, and even now the fungi is just taking matter and, you know, working with it, and creating all kinds of spores that flow around the world and do things and, and then we have these, you know, microbes and viruses, because there's so many of them. But if you think of all of that, how come humans that suddenly popped up? in that whole process, I mean, we're just the result of all that, that growth that has taken place over this innumerable length of time. So we were back there figuring as a fungi, I'm going to evolve myself into a human one day. So yes, it would be to answer what you said. Or just to reiterate, what you said is, if we just let go, this whole thing is just going to go on anyway. But right now, we think we are doing something about it, with our intellect, our minds and our sense of individuality. But basically, you know, we're mostly our bodies, mostly just different fungi, different microbes, in some kind of arrangement. That is making us say, Yes, we are humans. And in this arrangement, we are so trying to push things around in such a way that we tend to do a fair amount of damage to the process. So if we could let go of this and just let it all happen as it's going to happen anyway. Well, we'd probably be a lot better off at least individually, we will be a lot better off. I mean, a peace of mind that we don't have to worry about it.

Avi 19:18
I get the sense of that, too. There's another part of me though, that that considers Who am I to think that I know that we're like we're being dangerous that we're doing something wrong? Like who who am I to doubt the unfolding so that even this taking very seriously what it is that that I'm doing there's something that needs to be done this overthinking. kind of the opposite of of the letting go. Since it's happening, there must be a purpose for it. Right like the other part of me says like there must be a purpose like in in the divine unfoldment like what is what is not unfolding absolutely, perfectly. So it's like, even when I forget that I'm letting go, I'm still like letting go, right? The part of me that even thinks that I'm on the personality doing something like, Who created that, like what's doing that? So then it's like a wider perspective that it's really all just letting go whether or not whether or not I want to see it that way.

Robert 20:25
Yeah, and I think you're right on. And it's an issue. Because we all have created this issue for ourselves, we're all thinking, yes, if I can just let go. And then we devise all kinds of means yoga, for example, as a way of just letting us let go. And often that leads down the path of holding on to tighter and tighter instead of letting go. So and you know, I think also, this is why people get themselves rolling drunk, or jump off cliffs, or take huge amounts of drugs, or whatever they might do, is just to get rid of this sense of, I am pushing this in the right way. Unfortunately, those particular ways that I just mentioned, lead to a whole other slew of problems. And they're not really letting go, they're using an external something or other to have the sense of feeling idea that I can let go. Of course, the Yogi's have your long ago said that, you know, basically, and this is also mentioned in the, you know, the Old Testament as well is simply the stone. But that is extremely difficult to simply be slow. proven by the civilizations that we've built in thinking that we have a purpose thinking we need to do something thinking that we should create more and better even like right now, you know, if you look around the world, everyone is measured by their gross national product, how much they can produce and consume is the important thing. Whereas if we look at the result of all of that, it's not very happy at all, you know, we're busy, kind of cutting off our own supply of food, air and water, in the process of creating something better now as all sounds, possibly a little naturalistic in some way. However, I'm not meaning it to be like that. What I'm trying to say is that it is going on, regardless of what we personally can do, but since we do have the sense of individuality, and we do see that one action will be seemingly beneficial for more from our point of view, and the many, many different points of views. From that point of view, we should try and do that. If we discover that it's helping us to feel a little bit more balanced, peaceful, calmer, helpful to ourselves and others around us. And if it doesn't, then we see it's creating some kind of confusion, we should possibly try to refrain from doing that action. By beneath all of this is the, the wonderment and the sense that, wow, where did it come from? Why am I here? What am I doing? Does my as you mentioned, do my own actions. And thoughts actually have some kind of an effect on all of this? Well, there's one big clue if I can go and chit chatting. And this is the clue I always come back to myself is that when I am asleep, that whole world appear? The moment I wake up, everything is there. What happened to it when I went to sleep, of course, other people will say, Well, I was here I went out and I did this and I did that you are fast asleep. But I'm only speaking to those people when I'm awake. When I was asleep, I was not speaking to them. So there is a place in each and every one of our every day common experience where we simply cause off go away completely somehow shut the senses and go into some kind of space where we're not experiencing the whole universe at that moment. It doesn't really matter what's going on outside there. It only matters when we wake up and and we persist are perceiving around us. So that is a big clue to me. That somewhere Somehow

there is a space or a place, not a physical place a state of being of full rest, no striving, no regretting, no desiring, no running away from. But it's in a deep sleep state, I'm not conscious of it at all yet. If we look at it, when we wake up at a clock, there was that time period. That's a big clue. If, say you could be awake, or asleep, but be fully awake, or awake, but be as if you were in sleep. What would this cell called universe look like, then? To me, it looks like it's just things happening and going on. But when I wake up, there's a sense of me as a particular individual entity. Thinking, seeing, tasting, touching, etc, experiencing having past memories, desiring things in the future, which are all taking place, in my perception, somehow linked with strangely to my nervous system, my brain, and the senses, the sense organs, eyes, ears, nose, etc. Somehow, this information that I'm seeing all around me, is being processed inside me via the nervous system. That's making me think that time exists, place exists, is a past, in the future, and so on. So this is the mystery to unlock that. And it's not just to go to sleep at all time.

Avi 27:03
It makes me think of feelings, that feelings themselves are, can be science, right? Like, how do I feel? doing, you know, different activity? How do I feel when I'm awake? How do I feel when I'm sleep? Or how do I feel during different aspects of being awake, and that just being connected and reflecting on how I feel, for me will lead me towards growth, which is, I think, what, what my true nature wants, like, There's something inside it just wants wants to grow, like everything we're doing talking about, like, it's in the name of growth. So if I reflect on feelings, then they're they're like, little clues, like, okay, that felt good. Like, maybe I want to do that again, and see if it's a pattern that didn't feel good. Like, maybe I'm gonna leave that behind. Any thoughts on like, feelings being signs or clues for us? And the disconnect that, that maybe we often have from the feelings?

Robert 28:07
Yeah, definitely, feelings are a huge part of how we're getting around and experiencing the world around us without those feelings. We wouldn't have a clear understanding of the physical and subtle worlds around us as well, because you can also, you know, not have certain senses, or they could be lost in an accident. So things like that, where you're still perceiving very, very much inside yourself, as you do do in during a dream kind of state. Same ideas and colors and sounds and shapes and people and all sorts of things. But you're, I think you're exactly right, in what you say is that every single thing that we send, so feel is actually a clue, or an indication of telling us how we are aware we are in this universe, and are we quote growing or not growing. I just want to get back to because you use the word growing, so well growth. So this is really an interesting thing. Like, what are we growing to or towards, you know, this is the point is, are we growing, you know, to make the world a better place or a bigger place or to accommodate, you know, everyone better, etc, etc. One is rarely growth and from my understanding and my studies and hopefully practices in yoga, I say growth sort of in the other direction, that we're kind of disassembling the Constructed universe to find out? Where did it? What is it source? Where did this come from, and then the growth doesn't so much looked like a spiral outwards towards something rather looks almost like a spiraling inwards towards the source of all of this. And so it's also looking at how we define growth. And also that it gets very complex if we go into it, because everyone's going to have a different description of that. And often it's to do with time, place historical circumstance, culture. The ways that people do things, etc. You know, if you look at other cultures around the world, some of them don't have the fixation on this idea of

taking things in the natural world, and then trying to make them into something that is basically looks to be like a good thing. But if we look more closely, it's got some really devastating things around it. I don't know if you've read through it, if I've just been reading the book time and water, have you read that book. It's by Iceland, the person from Iceland, the really fascinating books, he went to a bunch of conferences about climate change, and very eminent scientists from all around the world are speaking about the disaster of climate change. And he noticed that at the end of these conferences, which were really good, everyone went away and just carried on doing the same things that they were doing. So and he's an author, and he writes, and one of his friends suggested, why don't you sort of write a book which really brings home, what does climate change is really doing to us. So he started writing this book about his way he lives in Iceland and his family, and his grandparents and what they did, and so on, they're really interesting character. And he, amongst many of the things in the book, one of the things that really strikes home about this idea of growth and change in the world is that he talks about fire. So you know what fire is an element, right, and it's in everything. And if we take this fire is also in this, although we don't see it, because it's not burning. But if we left it, it would definitely be after a period of time just become gray. And just as if it were burning, because actually, it is burning, because actually fires in here. So he figures that around the time of the Industrial Revolution, when James Watt invented the internal combustion engine, what what did was is got ahold of this fire and put it in a chamber to control it power and its energy. And then we could do so many things with it, which we've created, you know, all around us. It's incredible world that we live in right now. So he says, if you look at the cars out there, and the planes and the trains, and the buses and everything, think of them rather as containers for fire. They've got that fire contained in them. And then this fire is powering them to do what they do. And because we figured out a way to contain it, and channel it in such a way. So what has happened in is we found out that yes, if we just dig in the earth and get oil oil has got all this fire stored inside of it, we can, you know, transfer this oil and put it inside these machines. So now I'm sitting looking at all the cars I see going by and they all just like the wrong things or fire. And so then he says now imagine your car, how much oil you need to burn to travel around just in a year and put all that oil in barrels and stack it outside your house. Now you've got a wall of barrels of oil, which you're using and everyone in the world is using to zoom around like this. Now, he says as he is also like his his grandparents, parents and grandparents, great grandparents told lots of fairy tales. And every fairy tale pretty much around the world is a situation where somebody makes a deal with the demon or the devil and to get some power to get ahold of some power and Generally that demon or that devil says, Sure, I'll give you that power, but there's one thing, you're gonna have to give me your firstborn or your daughter or something in exchange. So he says, like the world right now, we made this deal with this oil. We want to call it whatever, got this fire. And now it's coming back to claim our children in what's going on in the world. So I told the whole story, you can read the books much better than

I ever why we've done is this idea that we can harness that energy and use it in some way or other, we all thought benevolent, get around quicker. It's created a lot of difficulties and a lot of problems, which is kind back to consume not only the world we're living in, but generations and generations after that. So is that the change that we're looking for? I'm not sure. I understand that, that the change and the growth we're looking for is to basically try to find the source, not for the use, just to know, what is the mystery of the universe? How did that, you know, as I said, Yeah, get ya and be here. So and this is what I understand, you know, Yogi's are trying to do, so maybe it's a way to try to understand that this is my understanding of what is the purpose of being in a human body and growth and change. Meantime, lots of little things we can do in the meantime, to be more helpful. While we're here.

Avi 36:57
Makes me think of this concept that I haven't totally worked out. But I'm curious to hear if you have any, anything to say about it. But often, it seems that we have a choice between short term gain, which might lead to kind of long term erosion of negative things. And often, the tendency is to take the immediate gratification, as opposed to the sustainability. Yeah, I'm wondering if you if you have any, any any thoughts about that, if you've considered that, because I just see it a lot. Like we're just keep taking that, that that instant fix, even though maybe we should have learned that the instant fix is not really going to give us what we're looking for

Robert 37:47
more absolutely 100%. This is where we're looking. I mean, the way I was taught this, is that what happens, we look for that instant fix, because at the moment we get whatever we're looking for, we are happy. But what we think is, is that the thing that gave us the instant fix and made us happy, was what made us happy. But we neglected to notice that what actually made us happy was that at the moment, we got the thing that we desired. We weren't thinking of anything else at that particular one fraction of a second. And we were just happy. Because we had stopped thinking, stop desiring, desiring more or etc, etc. But always thinking that it was the an object outside of us that cause that we look for it again and again and again. So if we eat something delicious, at the moment of eating it, our senses are satiated. Our mind is still we don't think where can I get that joy of this sweet whenever I'm needing. And at that particular moment, there's a feeling of happiness. And then our mind says, Well, maybe if I just get more of those or if I get a bigger one of the even be happier. I mean, I watch my mind the whole time. Since the pandemic, I've had to not be able to rush out every time my mind is thinking I just want something. So I've got to stay at home and little by little my minds just become a lot more peaceful and karma from not going to get some kind of instant fix somewhere. So it's looking at the what made us happy with We what made us peaceful and happy and calm at the moment, we got the instant fix. It wasn't the thing. It was the fact that there's no thinking. It's like being asleep, but that sleeping is the real joy in life, the bliss button. It when we get a, you know, say da da sensei date of bliss of one moment, no matter what it is, then we think it is that thing, we're led astray by that illusion, it was always here in the first place. It was the fact, I didn't have that piece, because my mind was always looking for something else, somewhere outside of me.

Avi 40:49
Seems that there's, you know, these moments that come that that are challenging for us. And like, we don't, we don't want to do it, right. Like your example, when you want to go out and get something and you realize that you can't like, for me, it makes me think of like, there's this this part of me inside that's like, Oh, well, I want it, you know, I, I can't do that, right? Like the thing that you feel like you You should do, but I can't do it, I can't do it. But But what I'm finding more and more is that if I can break through that the real juice is on the other side of, of whatever that obstruction thing that I'm rebelling against. If I if I work through that, that that rebellion, all of a sudden, I discover maybe that that I'm stronger than than I thought I was and what I couldn't do, I really can do.

Robert 41:40
Right. Now, thirdly, it's like having a desire, and wanting to fulfill it, and letting it go, the desire goes away, it's no longer there. I mean, it might come up again, at some future point in time, but right there, and then if you didn't chase after it, it just goes away. So maybe that's in a way, what you're referring to kind of let him go or going beyond, which is definitely the nice thing you said there was finding that I have the strength or that I am not really dependent upon that particular thing. or particular desire thought.

Avi 42:24
The other thing that that you mentioned, that I really love, and I'm going to be considering more, it almost feels actually a gift. Because I think perspective is a gift when we gain perspective. And what I've just gained perspective a little bit from you is on sleep is on the so often, I feel like I just I just want to take a break from this whole experience of life. Like if I could just like, you know, timeout, shut off for a while and then come back, see the world with fresh eyes. Because there's nothing I like more that satisfies me more that feels more appropriate than to see through the lens of wonder, and an awe, because I think that's that that's the reality of nature in our situation. But because of just the consistency of what we're going through, it gets it feels like the wonder is, is diluted. And things that are really magic just become ordinary, because I'm experiencing them all the time. But what you said about sleep, I think last thing too is that like that's why I love meditation, because it's feels like almost as close as I can get to the to the turning off. Like it's not quite that. But it's it's as close as I can get to that with which I really love. But sleep is maybe even more so like that. That's like really turning off the switch. And maybe I haven't appreciated that that is actually happening. When I fall asleep. It's like it's off. And then I wake up.

Robert 43:54
Yeah, I mean, also physically, there's nothing as healthy and as refreshing and rejuvenating than a deep sleep. Because at that point we close of all the senses. So the prana isn't being drained, it's not been lost out of us. And we can, you know, our body can rebound our mind can rebound I've even found there's some studies that show that when you're thinking and all the neuron activity is going on in your brain. There's a kind of a detritus that builds up a kind of a waste product. In fact, and this is drained out of your brain in your vital lymphatic system, there are certain parts of the lymphatic system in the brain, which kind of drain out the sludge that's left behind by thinking by neural activity that's going on. So when you go to sleep that is allowed to drain rarely, rarely well so you wake up, refresh your brain In a sort of clearer, sometimes the moment you wake up, you have sudden drag brilliant thought or idea or intuition or clarity, because all that slideshares and what I've always understood, by the way is that Capella body, which you know means to make the skull shine, is actually helps to drain that limb from the brain. So when we don't just mean you know, shocking that you're the Capella body increases the ability of the lymph system to drain. So I've got the name, shining skull, where your brain so deep sleep, this is the time and I found in my life, so I take a nap during the day, but it's usually just a five or 10 minute at the most nap. And what I do, I used to do it later on in the afternoon, around four o'clock, and so bad. acupuncturist advised me. No, you should do this at 11 o'clock. I said, Okay, I'm going to follow his advice. So I'll just lie down and pound Gong. And sometimes I wake up, I don't know where I am. Oh, and then Okay, here I am. But in that few minutes, like there's complete refreshing of your whole beam. So not just give it all not only gives you the sort of clarity on perception and who you are, but also, because you're in your body right now it helps to refresh and regenerate. So the six to seven hours average deep sleep per night, whatever it is different people is different, is probably the single most important thing for health, mental sanity, and whatever. I mean, it's a common form of torture is to keep people awake for 50 6070 hours, they go crazy.

Avi 47:02
I wonder if if, if it's also been a form of torture that, you know, most of us force ourselves to wake up from an alarm clock. You know, before the body is ready. I think about that a lot as a kid. I mean, that was that was the hardest thing for me to do. As a child. I wanted to keep sleeping. But nope, you got to get up. You got to go to school.

Robert 47:24
Yeah, yeah. They're thinking about that, too, about kids. Yeah, the whole school systems re upside down. Basically, can you imagine making somebody who just wants to run and scream and yell and sing over the joy of life tinium sit down and shut up. Don't move from that chair. This is a really strange form of torture, by the way, began in the industrial revolution, as well. So the lots of things that happened around there. However, you know, the other interesting thing about kids Island is you got your own, but I'm lucky to have three of them. And I want to jump. Yeah, I mean, they'll go on and on and on. And they do not want to sleep until suddenly, palm so so now you are you know, there in the world play fully and totally, and they will not they don't want to let it go. Some kids start yelling and screaming, or whatever, but then suddenly, pow, turn it off. And they go into this deep deep sleep state. So they got a lot to teach us there from the the sleep, you know, and what we call the world or the waking is really just being in the world with all its sense activity, etc. But they've come a moment for all of us where we're gonna have to shut it all off and go back to the reality of being without any, you know, sense activity. Robert, this is this has been so great. Last question I have for you is are you having fun? Well, sometimes I have fun. Sometimes I don't. But I do. I have found that. comparatively speaking, I'm having more fun later in life than I did. When I thought I was having fun. As my you know, I've got a deeper, more clear philosophical view of things around the there's less disturbance when I was younger, I get really high and then I crashed down and again, very high happy and then crashed down. Now there's a little bit more of an even keel So, you know that in that sense, if that is what you mean by having fun? Yeah, more or less?

Avi 50:11
Yeah, I think that is what I mean. Yeah, Swami satchidananda. You know, I think when asked, you know, what is the purpose of life said it's that fun and then went on to explain though, what does it mean to have to have fun? Maybe not here, you know, the the basic idea that you have about fun, and I think it is more about this, you know, more finding equity money that that that feels fun, what feels good, feels funny.

Robert 50:38
I wanted to mention that I didn't, but actually Swami satchidananda was the first Indian Swami or monk or Yogi that I met in 1972. In Israel, where there was a retreat arranged by a few Israeli women who are the yoga teachers of the day, that was 1972. And they invited a number of Swami Swami satchidananda. Vishnu devananda Venkatesan under but when I began yoga there at that time, the first Swamiji at when I got ran to this retreat, we had come there for three days with Swami satchidananda. And that was 1972, I do believe. And it was a small retreat center outside of Jerusalem somewhere. And all I can remember is that he was very tall, and very quiet, and very peaceful. And he chanted very nicely, and spoke very nicely. And I didn't remember much else after that. There was so that was way back a long time back.

Avi 51:58
Yeah, gosh, what is that 50 years now? Well, Robert, thank you so much again, I really really enjoyed this time with you. Would you be up for leaving us in a closing prayer as well?

Robert 52:14
Yeah, I'd be happy to. So one thing I also learned is if you bring your thumbs together against your heart center, and then put your hands together in this, you there is apparently a naughty running up here from your belly in money poor chakra to Agia chakra and this helps you to connect that energy. And then when we say ohm, it's you know, three sounds are probably all know, mine are is rarely the waking state down by the Mooladhara to the money poor and oh, is the dream state from the My poor to the Anahata. And then me is the deep sleep state from Anahata to Arjuna. And then there's a sound going after that which we can think of about 12 fingers above our head, which is beyond all these three states that we usually have.

Unknown Speaker 53:35

Robert 53:58
I said oh, Ma, Santa gamma, Thomas or Ma. Jyoti Rama, Marie Jo Ma, I'm written on nomada Nami Na Na mood Archer de una se Oppo nama Daya pulling me away she shed de m. Sha, de Sha, de Shang de Sherry namaha. De yo. danza, la Avi and everyone. Well, I

Avi 54:48
was just going to ask if someone wanted to get in touch with you. What is the best way to find out more information?

Robert 54:56
Sure. That is Robert at nama Rupa dot Oh RG. That's email address.

Avi 55:05
Got it. We'll put that in the show notes too. Great. Any other programs or anything that you'd want to mention?

Robert 55:12
Well, mostly I've, you know, been having pranayama classes on Zune. And that's been really interesting because people from all around the world are practicing. And finding that just every little bit of pranayama on a regular basis can basically change. Many, many, many things. So, that's a, you know, basic thing. And we we just finished our Hatha Yoga pradipika. We're gonna start up in August with going through so john Woodruff's book, The serpent power, you know, which is all about the Kundalini and the chakras, etc, from Indian text, the sub chakra nirupama. So that text is basically and john Rudra woodrose work was basically what revived an almost lost understanding of what really Hatha Yoga is, you know, supposed to be about, and then kind of morphed into what is going on in the modern age, which often has lost sight of what that was way back then. So again, look at our website and see any, any more information there.

Avi 56:33
Wonderful. Robert, thanks so much again. It's great. Yeah. Thanks a lot. Nice to meet you. Blessings to you, brother. Thanks for listening. If you've enjoyed this content and think others might as well, please feel free to share and subscribe.

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