Episode 94 | Richard Sclove | Modern Problems and Ancient Solutions

0:00
foreign [Music]
0:06
very happy to be joined by Richard sklove today and looking forward to talking about his book which is called
0:13
escaping Maya's Palace decoding an ancient myth to heal the
0:21
hidden Madness of modern civilization so so much I want to ask you about this
0:27
or I'd like to start here you know I heard you speaking about how you felt
0:34
like you had no choice but to write this book that it just kind of came to you is this is a project that you have to do
0:41
why do you think this feels so important to you this work no it's not so important to me it's important to
0:50
the gods apparently why do you think it's important to them
0:56
they just well my professional life I'd say since I was I had a spontaneous
1:02
Kundalini Awakening when I was 28 I would say at least since then all my important professional moves were
1:08
dictated to me by the gods and in some form so why they do what they do they
1:15
don't tell me they just I just get in various ways it gets communicated what I'm supposed to do and I got the the
1:22
idea for this book came to me during a nine-day silent Meditation Retreat it
1:27
floated up and it grabbed me and said and there was no choice involved so what
1:32
was the central idea of the book yeah I didn't know at the time
1:39
um I mean the the central idea that emerged as I worked on it is that
1:45
um the book is basically addressing the question of why is ours why is modern Western well now it's modern
1:52
civilization so messed up and and the the answer I come to is that that their
2:00
the globe the disruptiveness of the global economy has quietly shifted
2:06
psychological psychological development in a somewhat unfavorable way that has
2:12
contributed to some of the ailments of the modern world hmm
2:18
so how has uh the global economy disruption done
2:23
that um what I work out I'll give you the answer I mean the bottom line but you
2:30
know um in effect we the the way the economy and complemented by certain features of
2:37
modern Technologies um has tended to disrupt
2:45
um the the stability and density of social relationships and the density of
2:51
our experiential relationships with the natural world which for many people is a source of an experiential relationship
2:57
with the sacred so there's been a Just A disruption a thinning of social bonds and an insta destabilization of social
3:04
bonds in effect it's almost as though the world pushed us each away a little
3:10
bit and it had the effect of I I understand in my I first cut
3:16
understanding of what the ego is in the spiritual world I think of the ego as
3:21
um the unconscious process of erecting a psychological boundary and identifying
3:27
with what you find on the inside and that became that that balance
3:33
self-bound unconscious self-founding process as the world in effect pushed us away it it sharpened we sharpened our
3:41
egoic separation from everything that we don't perceive as me and the that has a
3:48
whole wide range of Psychosocial effects as that plays out so it's not that this
3:55
intensification of ego identification never existed in world history but it's
4:00
become more of a mass phenomenon and that that plays out in a bunch of ways that
4:06
are fairly unfavorable to the individual and to the society
4:12
and and you're saying that kind of capitalism is what brought brought about
4:17
um you see it happening with the emergence of global capitalism kind of in the you
4:24
know end of the 1500s early 1600s I mean I can be more specific about some
4:29
markers for that that's this is being pretty abstract okay so how but how did capitalism do this
4:37
well where you see it you know what I sort of say is I know part one of my markers for getting into
4:43
this is noticing something that historians simultaneity that historians have known
4:50
about but they don't have a psycholog psychological or psycho spiritual lens for paying attention to it which is that
4:57
it turns out that the emergence of a consumer society which begins in certain
5:03
parts of the world a lot in north northwest Europe but parts of China too
5:08
but the emergence of of consumer Societies in which for the first time more or less in history lots of people
5:14
are very preoccupied with buying stuff and doing whatever they have to do to
5:19
earn enough money to be able to do that the emergence of a consumer Society turns out to coincide with the emergence
5:27
of widespread consumption of addictive substances if you look at the early global economy
5:34
and the especially the early North Atlantic slave economy you know beginning sort of late 1500s until
5:41
industrialization which is sort of towards 1800 for the first 250 years of
5:47
of globalization and the North Atlantic slave economy most of what the slaves
5:53
are doing is growing addictive stimulants for an emerging for the
5:59
basically they're growing sugar in the Caribbean coffee coffee in in Brazil uh sugars being
6:07
turned into rum they're growing tobacco and you know in uh on the Eastern you know Southern Eastern Seaboard so
6:13
tobacco sugar rum coffee these kind of addictive substances are most of what
6:19
slaves are doing until industrialization means that now that they're turned towards growing cotton and so the you
6:26
have this conjunction of you know suddenly the emergence of a consumer Society a subset of important subset of
6:33
that consumption the driving motor behind really the emerging slave economy is is for consuming things with
6:40
addictive potential and the thing we know so historians know those two things
6:45
happen but don't make anything of it they just think okay there's a subset you know so there was some addictive
6:50
substances but but the thing is if you look up study up on Modern addiction addiction is understood as a
6:58
developmental disorder and when you see the emergence of two forms of intensive craving on the one
7:05
hand for consumer goods in General on the other hand specifically for Addictive substances and The Addictive
7:11
substances are the expression of a developmental disorder maybe that same
7:16
developmental disorder has something to do with the emergence of consumer insatiability
7:22
and and in both cases I argue that underlying it is this intensification of
7:27
ego identification which expresses on the one hand in consumer insatiability and on the other hand in a propensity
7:34
towards addiction um but it but it means that it that if if that's true we can get you know that
7:41
has a lot of implications for how we have misunderstood what capitalism is about
7:47
so that's the developmental disorder is the ego identification intensified it's
7:54
not that there was an ego identification but a more intensive it's partly as that boundary in if this is using metaphors
8:01
you know for something that we don't even know understand how you would more accurately describe it but if you think
8:06
about it as as the boundary that defines my ego as it as becoming more thick or
8:12
impermeable or rigid as people are experientially more cut off from the world they experience an emptiness
8:19
inside and that Expresses in its in an insatiable craving which can be come
8:25
consumer craving or it can be become addiction
8:32
so in a way would you say that you know the antidote for that is is connection
8:37
feeling connected that's right in effect I am saying that or I mean I mean exactly what it means for what you would
8:44
do to address it I address in the back half of my book but I'd like to say a little about what the implications of of
8:50
this for capitalism are because I mean we can tease it out but I mean at a first cut
8:56
we think of capitalism as the greatest engine that was ever developed for
9:02
producing and distributing Goods I mean we have very some of us had problems there's a downside to capitalism which
9:08
we're familiar with but but the good the upside and the reason most people say on balance we think it's a good system is
9:15
that it produces goods that for that create satisfaction for humans and my
9:21
book is saying there's a bit of an allusion to that because capitalism is not producing satisfaction it's
9:27
producing the psychology that means no matter what goods we acquire there can
9:32
be no enduring satisfaction because we have a psychology that's incapable of that and so this is talk about this 2500
9:39
years ago and that means that people who sometimes when I talk with Buddhists they sort of say that can't be right
9:45
because the craving's always been with us but if you look carefully as I have at anthropology and history yes human
9:51
craving is universal to some extent but the insatiability of it and intensity of
9:57
it there's historical markers that we're different than than you know pre-modern societies
10:04
the insatiability of it I'll give you a marker for I'll
10:09
give you one marker for it after the black death in Europe in the 1400s it wiped out a third to a half of European
10:17
peasantry in parts of Europe where there was a wage economy like in England suddenly peasants were getting could
10:24
earn more had higher hourly wages because there's an enormous labor scarcity so they could have done
10:30
different things with that some of them a minority of peasants took advantage of higher wages to become
10:38
wealthy as wealthy as they could they built how they built you know if they was typically certain small land holders
10:43
who were more advanced peasants some of them took advantage of higher wages to earn as much money as they could and
10:50
build nice big houses and put lots of stuff in it but a whole lot of peasants who had higher wages said thank you very
10:57
much and they worked shorter days and fewer days and shorter hours hmm
11:04
so you're saying that in the modern times probably the vast majority of
11:09
people would choose to use that increase in um what employers what your boss
11:17
wants you to work more they offer you higher wages in the all about but back
11:22
in Europe that in that time that wouldn't have worked for a lot of people because if you offered higher wages they had the opportunities to say good I'm
11:29
working I'm cutting my 60-hour work week back to 34 hours yeah so you know what I think is that
11:36
there's something else uh at play here there's something else at play and sure that that that's driving that that
11:43
decision and what I feel like it is is societal standing
11:48
right is that it's common today to be overworked to be
11:54
stressed out right to there's not really much of a glorification culturally in living a
12:02
simple life I would say in order to live a simple life you kind of have to be an outsider I would say there or there's
12:08
even probably a stigma against that there's something wrong with you why don't you want more stuff you know well
12:15
I I agree with you and I haven't thought about this before except you're talking about a phenomenon it's really quite recent meaning right now in you know
12:22
last 20 years there's there's a glorification of overwork I mean we have
12:27
this weird reversal and you know and standard marks and social critique it's the lump and proletariat the people at
12:33
the bottom who are forced to overwork and we have this thing where professionals feel like they aren't
12:39
they've got to performatively work 80 hours a week to demonstrate but that's quite recent I'm describing a phenomenon
12:46
that plays out over 400 years so while what you're saying is true I say that as a recent add-on the what I'm talking
12:53
about has held pretty true for for several centuries right but to me the the really important
13:00
factor to be aware of is the influence that culture has on our decision making
13:05
you know whether it's recent or not like that for me what's really important is
13:11
kind of just like honor the fact that very deeply rooted Within Myself is a
13:16
desire to be a part of something larger to be accepted within a community I think most people have that so whatever
13:23
way the community goes uh there's going to be a strong force that pushes me to
13:30
go that way too just so that I'm accepted by my peers whatever the general I agree with all that and I
13:36
though I'm not an anthropologist I've read my anthropology and I take culture seriously on the other hand does it we
13:42
don't we're kind of weak in our in our society and understanding psychological developments another factor in play so
13:49
psychological development is is interacting with culture they partly are expressions of one another they're not
13:55
into inter they're not independent forces but we tend to ignore psychological development because
14:01
there's really not a concept that psychological development can trajectories of it on a mass basis can
14:07
shift historically under the influence of historical forces that's not really something
14:13
I mean that's something I'm stumbling across because partly because I just
14:18
accidentally found some markers for it it's mostly because I'm able to use addiction as a marker for psycholog for
14:24
a shift in psychological development I found a lens that lets me look back in time to detect a ship that people
14:30
haven't detected specifically addiction it's specifically addiction it seems
14:37
like kind of like a chicken or the egg thing potentially here uh in terms of addiction and and the uh the the
14:44
availability uh to you know whatever it is sugar coffee whatever this the substance is you know is
14:52
am I craving more of it because it's readily available or is it becoming more readily available
15:00
because I have such a craving for it and therefore the the capitalistic engine is
15:07
is providing more of it because there's a there's a demand it's like which one comes first well except in my point is
15:13
that the capital expansion that's providing it is also create catering to the demand is also creating secretly
15:20
creating the demand so what is that what is it like what is the what is the what is the secret you
15:26
know is that something that just happened because someone had an idea of of capitalism as as a system this was
15:32
nobody's this was nobody's plan at least nobody no human no human no human person had this well I don't know if I don't
15:38
know what the gods are doing up there but this is no this was there's no conspiracy theory here this is this this
15:44
emerged but not because anybody understood what was going on no but where did it go wrong do you think is
15:50
there where did it go wrong like where where's the value in the is there value in the in this in the capitalistic well
15:57
there is value I mean when I look towards what I what I you know towards what I think we ought to be try
16:03
exploring for ways to get out of the binds we're in because I haven't talked about the doubt the extent of the
16:09
downside that comes with this I mean the downside is not addiction the addiction is one of the downsides of what I'm
16:15
talking about but I'm using but I'm stressing addiction because it's a marker and it lets me understand what's going on but the ramifications of all
16:22
the the other consequences of this shift towards more intense ego identification plays out in an incredibly large array
16:30
of personal and societal harms um now where was I going with that I'm
16:35
I'm old like I lose my friend was it the value of capitalistic model yeah yeah well okay
16:43
yeah and when if you move to if you the the steps I I mean it's not like nothing good happened in the modern world so if
16:51
you were if you were trying to move into a system that was not built in effect to hold back our psychospiritual
16:57
development because one feature by the way of intense ego identification one thing the ego does not want is to change
17:04
it certainly doesn't want spiritual progress because to the ego ego Transcendence is death
17:11
and so the ego Works super hard to me you know the more intense ego identification is the more you've got a
17:18
psychology that means that all those of us who are interested in Spiritual Development or who do Psychotherapy and
17:24
who want to grow we do not understand this extent to which we are operating in
17:29
a system that is optimized to make sure we're going to fail because the system depends on that
17:34
capitalism depends on insatiability if insatiability collapses capitalism as we
17:40
know it collapses so the system requires insatiability to keep functioning as it
17:45
does and that insatiability is this expression of the psychology intense ego
17:51
identification which more than anything else wants to make sure that our spiritual project will fail and so the
17:57
reason I think this community should be interested in this is that we we're living in a systems of
18:05
making pretty sure that we're not going to succeed at transcending our ego at
18:10
the same time I'm really excited that there's ways that things that like I
18:16
mentioned to you before we started that you know for those of us like me who are both politically Progressive and
18:23
spiritually inclined if that's not a tiny group of people it turns out that
18:29
those are more intimately connected than we have understood according in the lights of my model that I've got running
18:35
because on the one hand the bad news is we've got a system a global political
18:40
economic system that's optimized to make sure we're going to stay stuck in ego identification no matter how hard we
18:46
might try to get Beyond it on the other hand if you look at the kinds of things that we do forget about our spiritual
18:51
spoil from now think about our political Progressive self if you look at the lot of the things that political
18:57
progressives do not everything but a decent amount of what we work on is addressing the disruptiveness of
19:02
capitalism or at also it's complemented by hierarchies and Injustice because when you have hierarchies and ingested
19:09
it's it that tends to to inflate the egos of those at the top of hierarchies while making everybody else more subject
19:16
to the adverse disruptiveness that they are disempowered from it from responding
19:22
to so a lot of progressive movements are working to reduce this that
19:28
disruptiveness because we care about social justice or peace or democracy or something like that I'm saying hey guess
19:35
what if you did that in the right way the things that we want that we're trying to do as progressives in our
19:41
politics have the accident would have The Accidental effect those are the same the things we're trying to dismantle in
19:47
terms of just references disruptiveness and Injustice are the same things that are intensifying our egoism so we're
19:54
actually working in the right direction and it turns out on the one hand we're in a system we don't understand has been
19:59
optimized to make sure our spiritual project will fail on the other hand the things we're doing for other reasons as
20:05
political progressives if we did them in the right way they just might be dismantling the sis the forces that are
20:13
holding us so strongly in our ego identification and so there's an opportunity to bring our spiritual and
20:19
political Progressive projects together in a way that you just the fact that
20:24
they suddenly are integrated in a new way that alone leads to a sense of wholeness but it could also be more
20:29
effective and it can it has the potential like I've written a book it's not doesn't have that much
20:36
distribution but imagine for some reason it took hold the idea got out there or
20:41
or other people come to the same idea and the idea just gets to diffuse in
20:46
there well suddenly that could be a basis for political for Progressive movements becoming more muscular because
20:53
suddenly you can make the case that these action steps that I'm proposing because they're going to advance social
20:59
justice is going to have The Accidental byproduct of advancing our psychospiritual development and that
21:06
should attract more people into the movements including some of the people who are spiritually in who are involved
21:12
in spirituality but are not engaged in politics suddenly they would have more skin in the game to join the progressive
21:18
movements that suddenly they see they aren't going to succeed we aren't going to succeed in our spiritual Endeavors if
21:25
we don't if we don't make some Headway on the on that Progressive political stuff because it's dismant it's it turns
21:31
out it could be helping to dismantle the forces that hold us stuck in our egoism
21:37
yeah you know everything you're saying to me you know I come back to the seems like a
21:44
conversation that uh is quite prevalent and that is
21:50
you know the the doing versus the being right because especially in the spiritual world you know I think many of
21:57
us get to a place of of deep acceptance you know acceptance and and gratitude
22:02
for how things are and you could say that that would fly in the face of
22:08
activism right because I'm I'm content where I'm at so then I don't have this driving
22:15
force to create any any positive change um so it's a very interesting
22:20
conversation but what you're saying is that you know really these two movements are are linked
22:27
um but I'm curious yeah you're opening a huge interesting can of worms I don't
22:33
know how much you want to walk down that coaster but I mean you know one thing is
22:39
you and I happen to be a little in the Hindu world uh the Buddhists tend to be
22:45
uh have more have more traction in our culture at the moment one of the there's a I think there's
22:52
there's several reasons for that but but one of them is that the Buddhists are doing socially engaged spirituality more
22:58
I mean integral yoga is different there isn't a social engagement in integral yoga but in general if you look at the
23:03
Hinduism in America it starts with Cananda who was socially
23:09
engaged Gandhi could have been the template for the introduction of Hinduism into the west and he was
23:15
socially engaged he was a Karma Yogi but it didn't happen Hinduism the the
23:21
Buddhists took up the mantle of social engagement and and the Hindus were more bhaktis we studied we studied we we're
23:28
orianas we study the texts and and we do our kirtan and you know our ecstatic
23:33
practices but there's not there's there most of the Hindu teachers in the west have not been socially engaged but I
23:41
really think for well you know what you mentioned that the subtitle of my book is decoding an ancient myth to heal the
23:47
hidden man well the ancient myth yeah the ancient myth we all know the bhagavad-gita uh the bhagavad-gita a lot
23:54
of people don't know that bhagavad-gita was never written as a self-standing document it's a fragment of book six of
24:02
an 18 book epic called the Mahabharata the Mahabharata is the myth that I'm
24:07
working with which is the are some people sometimes described as the longest book ever written because it's seven times the length of the Odyssey
24:14
and The Iliad put together but the way I decode it it's an allegory of psychospiritual development in which the
24:21
metric they use for psychospiritual development is moral development the heroes get to the heroes get to the
24:28
heroes get to heaven at the end they transcend the ego and then do a bunch of other stuff and finally get to enter
24:34
Heaven which is a metaphor for enlightenment not when they're sort of have achieved non-duality although they
24:41
do but it's when they achieve Perfection and moral intuition and so this idea of quiescent that you know I'm that it's
24:48
about producing contentment well the Mahabharata is not about producing contentment it's about producing
24:53
perfection in your understanding and fulfillment of Dharma and so it's got
24:58
the Mahabharata in effect has social engagement and ethics that's it's at the core of spiritual element and so any if
25:06
you've got Spiritual Development that is not leading to compassion and engagement from the mahabharata's point of view you
25:12
ain't got Spiritual Development yeah it doesn't matter because no matter if you can transcend your ego and Bliss out in
25:18
non-duality to the Mahabharata that ain't nothing that's just not an accomplishment of consequence
25:24
yeah I think because I think in a way to really do that it it it it it uh imbues
25:31
a sense of fearlessness in life if I if I'm really grateful for
25:37
everything that I have everything that I've experienced so far I'm not afraid of what the future
25:44
might hold because I'm totally full which to me that that person is the most
25:53
powerful force the person that has nothing to lose is the most powerful force that there is in terms of of
26:00
social action right I mean potentially yoga sutras begin
26:06
with ethics you start with ethics the spiritual path starts with that with practicing ethics
26:12
before you learn meditation you learn ethics and in theory I don't know why it doesn't work out in theory
26:19
in theory if you've transcended the ego you ought to intrinsically be you would
26:25
think that that would automatically lead to social engagement because if I no longer experience myself as sharply
26:31
separate from the world around me and others the good of the other and and myself there's no difference between
26:37
those so I would automate you would think you would automatically go into compassionate action it turns out that's
26:43
not the case it's quite possible to you know have a certain type of spiritual progress but without ethical training
26:50
and practice integrated into that people don't automatically go into compassionate action but frankly
26:56
spirituality doesn't interest me very much unless that's what it involves I've you know I've always I when I first
27:02
became personally interested in spirituality it was partly to escape my suffering as a young person and which I
27:08
failed because I've suffered all my life anyway but it was partly to escape suffering and partly because you hear
27:13
about Bliss and you think wouldn't I like to be Blissful but actually for me I sort of have a bodhisattva impulse
27:19
it's not that I have body capabilities I'm neither enlightened or all that but
27:26
my impulse personally just I was born into this lifetime like I want to help heal the heal this world
27:32
and so for me that for me that happens to kind of be natural but it's actually not natural for a lot of people and so
27:38
really I think spiritual practice should always include an ethical social engagement because I think you want that
27:44
cultivated in everybody but in any case according to this text I'm so steeped in the Mahabharata that is the essence of
27:51
spiritual self-realization is to become more compassionately self-engaged in the
27:56
Fulfillment of Dharma which is always not just for your own benefit so you you don't think that there's a
28:04
correlation between doing the internal work yourself
28:09
and taking the the action you just already told you
28:15
start you're the one who already made that argument for me you sort of said that you're the one who sort of said people I'm feeling
28:20
contentment so why would I want to do anything I've got I've gotten my I've gotten more
28:26
at peace with myself and so I'm content so the world seems good so why would I want to do anything
28:32
and I'm saying if there are a lot of people like that I agree with you but I think that's not something to celebrate
28:38
I think that means we've been deficient in our spiritual practice that that's where people are ending up
28:43
yeah no I'm trying to say something different okay I'm just understanding if if if the the real inner work is done
28:51
it's hard to know what's happening inside another person right right it's hard to know what's happening inside me
28:56
there you go that's how you know um what I'm what I'm saying is like
29:03
can I trust in the internal work right because there's so much what I see
29:09
in today's world there's so much uh attention on external
29:14
external I can it's so easy today to not look inside myself right and have strong
29:20
opinions and that's all the ego uh working there uh if the world was like
29:25
this you know things are terrible and all these inflated opinions with a lack
29:31
of humility you know and they're running away from what's actually happening inside my own being
29:39
and the question here is if I turn inside
29:44
and genuinely become more interested in making this being that I have more
29:51
control over than anything external you know will that lead to more external
29:58
progress as a byproduct of doing that work I think empirically the answer is not
30:05
necessarily just looking around the world I think not like like in my
30:11
lineage one of the foundational teachings is sadhna and Seva we're
30:16
supposed to do spiritual practice but every day there should be an element of selfless service
30:23
but that's not that's seen as integral to the sadhna they're not really two separate things but a complete sadhna
30:31
has to have an element of serving something other than oneself and that's partly about cultivating this
30:38
orientation towards helping others but it's it's not and
30:44
it's but you can't distinguish when you're doing that it is helping yourself that's available that's the myth to me
30:51
that's the myth that it's even possible to be totally selfless
30:56
right Swami Suchi dinanda has a quote that I love who will be the happiest person the one who brings happiness to
31:01
others and so to to Really dive into that that is that that's that's a shift
31:06
that it's okay that nature is set up to me it's one of the most beautiful things that nature is actually set up this way
31:12
that I my heart receives something by helping uh something outside of myself
31:19
doing some good outside of myself it feeds feeds me so these things aren't disconnected that's right but that's a
31:27
little different than than when you were when you were starting off with this idea that you know my spiritual practice
31:32
is just about going inward in in my lineage and I think it's intrinsic from what I've read of integral yoga you
31:38
don't that's not all that spiritual practices it's into going inward is part of spiritual practice but it's not the
31:45
case it's not it's not sufficient well in a way I'm saying that like my mind does well if I if I have complete
31:52
focus and I simplify as much as possible for me if I simplify so if I simplify that that my goal is to make this being
32:01
as um to reach its potential you know as much
32:07
as possible to go as as far along on that path then
32:12
um then there's a balance there right between I'm not going to do that I'm not going to accomplish that if I don't
32:18
interact with the world outside of myself so even when I'm doing Karma Yoga helping other people around me that's a
32:26
part of my own self-development those things aren't disconnected so everything is my self-development even whether I'm
32:32
meditating by myself in a room or helping someone else an emergency that they're having they're all for my
32:37
self-development simple right but I for me you know I don't want to tell I don't
32:42
want to know about what other people should do for me just being on the mat isn't enough I
32:48
agree that you know when I'm if I'm doing try if I'm trying to be a Karma Yogi that's working on myself in
32:54
addition to helping the world if I choose to only be on the mat I mean there may be some benefit to that to the
33:00
world it might be you know there's a there's a theory that I hear all the time and it might be true which is just
33:05
the pure vibrations that come from that are are a contribution to the world and
33:11
that may be true I I actually don't know that myself maybe it's true it feels to me that wouldn't be enough for me if I
33:17
was just on the mat I think I need to be I think for my own development and the
33:22
world I need to be doing something besides just on the mat although I respect it I mean I guess for me if I
33:28
knew someone was on the mat and I could feel the behind their in
33:34
their heart where they're at with that and that their concern is with there's a compassion there and a concern I could I
33:40
could imagine okay I can see with the sincerity of their energy that by being on the mat I believe that they really
33:48
are making a contribution to the world but we there better not be all of us are only doing that because the world needs
33:54
something besides just us being on the mat especially if my book is right that needs it needs us to be just working on
34:01
addressing the macro social forces that are holding us stuck in this intense ego identification I don't think that just a
34:09
bunch of us being on the mat is under is going to address the pro the downside of
34:14
global capitalism yeah I don't I'm not too worried about that problem of like that that in a way
34:20
that would be a good problem to have if like the entire you know human population stops what they're doing to meditate throughout the day like well
34:27
that would be interesting and a lot of other things yeah
34:32
um I want to ask you about democracy though because I I know you're you're very interested in this and you know
34:38
I've been finding it um you should let people know my first book yeah it's
34:43
called democracy and Technology yeah democracy and Technology I have a PhD in
34:48
political philosophy yeah so I I think it it's wise to take a step back
34:55
and just look at democracy you know for most of us living in this country we've heard about democracy our whole lives
35:00
yeah democracy is a great thing but like do my question is do we really believe in democracy and is there any better
35:09
system and talking to a lot of different people I've actually been somewhat
35:14
surprised that more people than I realize I think don't really believe in democracy is the best system I haven't
35:20
heard a better a better alternative so I'm curious what that might be but like
35:26
when it comes down to it a very common perspective is we can't let everyone
35:31
decide because the majority of the population they don't really know what they're doing you know they're ignorant
35:36
you know me and maybe a few of my friends the the elites are the ones that uh should
35:43
really um be be deciding and so I'm curious your perspective on this just like is
35:49
democracy the best we can do in terms of a system gosh it's so first of all it's
35:55
not really it's I have it's you know I've been doing my Mahabharata critique of modern civilization thing my
36:02
democracy had takes me back more 30 years but um democracy is not one thing there's
36:08
many different forms of democracy our our democracy at the moment is barely
36:14
right I mean it's so it's our system it's been so broken for 30 years we
36:19
haven't had a functional Congress uh yeah but I'm not even talking about politics that's a different thing you're
36:25
right like I wouldn't even call that a democracy I'm just talking about like fresh eyes like let's just look at the
36:30
idea of everyone having an equal say in in what happens that part of it you know
36:36
my understanding of a more effective democracy you know what I was involved was a democratic theorist and activist
36:42
it was always oriented towards more egalitarian and participatory modes of democracy
36:48
um which always has an educative Dimension to it it doesn't take people just as they are and throw them into a
36:54
voting booth it's a matter of social processes and structures that Cult of cultivate our capacity for citizenship
37:01
and mature judgment um at its there's certain I was involved in in ex various kinds of experiments
37:08
with uh egalitarian deliberative democracy and nationally and internationally and I write in my book
37:14
somewhere in chapter 16 I I have a little Riff on on on on some forms of of
37:20
democratic press practice that I think are quite um
37:25
that that have a strong in intrinsic spiritual demand Dimension there's
37:31
there's forms of egalitarian deliberation in which unenlightened
37:36
people are put in a process that tends to produce a relatively enlightened
37:41
judgment and so there are forms of democratic practice on a discuss one in the book in
37:47
chapter 16 that I think are that have us an intrinsic spiritual not you don't
37:52
have to believe anything about spirituality but they they function and and these are real institutions that are
37:58
practiced at small scale all over the place um so there are aspects of democratic
38:05
practice that I think show promise and they're not the ones that dominate our
38:11
the forms of democracy that we have that are that dominate do not have those characteristics I mean right now our
38:18
system is incredibly damaged um I want to go back to this the ego
38:24
structure and how it it develops because from from my experience you know the child
38:30
doesn't have it right and so it's formed at some at some point
38:36
and then you know many of us become very interested in detangling so this
38:43
um this this concept um indoctrination into this this system
38:48
of uh being very identified with my separate self you know I experienced
38:55
that for a while and then as a result of maybe the pain and suffering many of us say okay I need something different and
39:01
then find something but what I'm curious is if you have any insights in how this
39:06
structure is developed you know how are we convincing the child to take this on essentially no I'm not the right person
39:13
for that and that's because I'm while I for to write this book I had to teach myself some developmental psychology but
39:20
but primarily I've been working with adult developmental psychology the Mahabharata is not a book for instance
39:26
it's not a text that's strong on Child Development it's it's really a text on on adult psychospiritual development so
39:33
this the question you're asking about the initial formation of the ego
39:39
is an interesting question to me but I'm not going to pretend to have anything very any great expertise to contribute
39:46
to that my opinion well I mean I'm a parent and now I'm a
39:52
grandparent so and I'm watching I have a new my first grandchild's five and I'm looking at him and sort of watching and
39:57
sort of is this God is this is it do I see an ego here yet and at five months
40:04
um probably not meaning I don't think he's distinguishing a whole that he's between self and other in that way yet
40:12
um but anyway I don't I don't know that I have
40:17
anything I don't feel like I have anything of Genius to say about about a healthy ego have you have you thought
40:23
much about this like the concept of that the ego is here so it does have a role to play
40:29
um and there is such a thing as a healthy ego if so what is that well
40:35
again I'm steeped in a particular text in the Mahabharata
40:40
the structure as I decode it then you know it's it's an interpretation of the Mahabharata but the structure I see is
40:47
that that it's a 5 000 page text which is basically the first half of it is basically a struggle between the ego and
40:53
soul for Supremacy and the Soul it turns out you know in a sense the ego's the bad
41:00
guy in the story but not really the soul can't the soul in the first half of their life journey of the protagonists
41:07
it's in through contesting with the ego that the soul is formed and matures and
41:13
so it eventually has to take on the ego and destroy it but but couldn't get
41:18
there without the ego and in fact it really freaks the soul out with the character who represents the soul when
41:24
he finally makes it to Heaven at the end of the 5 000 pages the character who represents the ego is
41:30
already sitting in heaven waiting for him and it freaks him out and pisses the out of him but the ego's sitting up
41:37
there in heaven because it fulfilled its Dharma of allowing the soul to succeed in its Journey wow but it's it but it's
41:44
irrelevant that it whether it's a healthy ego or not it's just the the ego's task is to allow is to contribute
41:51
to the development of the Soul and but a very fascinating part about
41:57
the Mahabharata it's 18 volumes and I interpret those as eight an allegory of 18 stages and psycho Spiritual
42:03
Development the interesting thing is in our daily lives the way you and I in our spiritual World We tend to Bandy hear
42:09
Bandy about and we ourselves probably Bandy about ego Transcendence when you have ego Transcendence when you if you
42:16
somehow did that you'd be enlightened and the Mahabharata is extremely explicit from its point of view no way
42:22
Jose because the the the drug the dramatic centerpiece of the Mahabharat is a war
42:29
eight four of the 18 four big volumes of the 18 volumes of the Epic in the middle
42:34
are the war the war is the war the decisive the existential struggle
42:39
between the soul and the ego at the end of book nine the soul succeeds in extinguishing the
42:47
ego but there's nine more books when they after they even after the ego is
42:52
vanquished that's not Enlightenment you're only halfway there and I find that actually enormously
42:58
helpful if to me in a variety of ways one is like a lot of us I'm prone to Ego inflation
43:05
and one of the times you get ego inflation all the time is every time you think oh am I on the edge of
43:10
Enlightenment am I about to transcend the ego and that instantly if you think that ego Transcendence means
43:17
enlightenment it turns out that ego Transcendence then automatically leads to inflate ego
43:22
inflation because you've transcend the ego and that immediately makes you go into the inflation of thinking you're enlightened and the Mahabharata is
43:29
really helpful to me because it sort of tells me even if you got to the stage of extinguishing your ego you are
43:37
enlightened you got more work to do the other part that's really interesting they are I'll tell you that in a sec but
43:42
the other part that's interesting about this is you know if the ideas that we're going for in the spiritual world this
43:49
Enlightenment well empirically guess what almost nobody gets there and in the modern world if anybody gets there
43:55
almost nobody stays there it's extremely elusive as a goal but the Mahabharata
44:02
opens up this middle terrain it's sort of said well there's a lot of spiritual psychospiritual progress to be made that
44:09
actually is quite accessible whereas the chance that any of us are going to be enlightened you know as spiritual
44:14
teachers and so spiritual teachers always are offering Enlightenment but very few of them if any are enlightened
44:20
and and none of their students pretty much ever are going to be including me so it's all it's like if you think
44:27
you're aiming for enlightenment well if you're Catholic look at that with a cold empirical eye your odds are extremely
44:32
low but the Mahabharata opens up this valuable middle terrain that is not so inaccessible which has Merit and value
44:39
in itself even if you never make it through Enlightenment and I don't expect that's going to happen to me because
44:45
empirically the odds are real real but what are we even talking about what is what is Enlightenment you said it's like
44:51
uh distinguishing the ego but then that is not even it what are we talking about well I can tell you my favorite story
44:58
from the Mahabharata if you want to hear it I mean you asked one question we've
45:04
digressed when I say the in the Mahabharata at the end of book nine the ego's gone but there's nine more books in the next
45:12
the first nine books the main the protagonists which are five brothers and a joint wife the protagonists are
45:17
working towards transcending the ego in the remaining nine books they are at one level working
45:24
towards transcending dualism but really through the 18 books what
45:29
they're working towards is perfection in Discerning and fulfilling moral duty Dharma what they're really
45:36
working towards is perfection and Dharma and they tell this I can tell those a little cute little story from the end if
45:42
you want to hear it sure so there's there so the book nine of this 18 book
45:49
epic you know the five brothers have have killed the ego in a terrible war
45:54
and uh all through the book um Krishna is like is there is Lord
46:00
Krishna an avatar is is sort of in the background helping them out
46:05
um along the way and we all a lot of us know the bhagavad-gita which again is from book six of the mahabharatan and
46:11
book six you know Krishna is there helping Arjuna you know get ready for the war with the ego but um in book 16
46:20
of the 18 books Krishna dies and Krishna has to die because up till
46:27
now in their long journey through the protagonists of the who represent the soul and their long journey through
46:32
their life he's been in the background helping them but at the very high stage their attachment to him to each Krishna
46:39
is holding them back from Going the Distance so he dies and that's devastating to them
46:46
but it releases them from bhakti and onto completing their karma path and and
46:52
the five brothers they're distraught they've they've lost creation and they renounce like their their Kingdom one of
46:58
them's a king and they in their joint wife start to climb up to the Himalayas and it's the climbing a stray dog follow
47:06
us along and they're climbing up and one by one the the lead character
47:12
the king is named eudistra who is whose Funk whose mission in life is to
47:18
understand Dharma and you know discern correctly and fulfill Dharma he's been trying to do that as their climates them
47:24
always one by one you distress The Joint wife and the Four Brothers die and
47:30
finally they have to die because they actually represent the all these characters together represented the soul
47:35
and the parts have to kind of fall away so that the so we can move towards unity
47:41
and Union and as they you district is heading it makes it to the top of the
47:46
Himalayas to the Gate of Heaven only the dog is still there the Stray Dog and uh and you have to
47:54
understand that Hinduism uh dogs don't get a lot of love you know Hanuman and you know the monkey god and the Elephant
48:01
got a lot of animals get loved they represent gods but the dog is impure because the dog eats everything it's
48:08
indiscriminate and it symbolizes in that world impurity so this impure animals
48:13
following along with eudistra the king who gets to the Gate of Heaven and Lord injury the king of the God steps out of
48:20
heaven and welcomes you distance says come on in get rid of the dog and all through his life up till now
48:27
eudistra has wanted to do the right thing but he doesn't know what it is and he he's all through the five thousand
48:34
Pages he's asking Christian what he should do his brothers his wife different sages he's trying to work it
48:39
out and figure out what he should do and he's you know trying and he's and he's making progress but he's he still always
48:45
has to confer with people and think about it and now at the culmination of his journey about to enter Heaven has
48:50
the opportunity Lord Indra King of the God says come on in lose the dog and he can't do it and he says to he
48:58
says to Indra can't can't do it the dog isn't my dog
49:03
but it's a fellow creature and if I say yes to do you the dog dies I I can't do
49:10
it and the dog transmutes into Lord Dharma the king of
49:17
morality who is the actual father of judicia and and it's a pure tantric teaching even
49:24
though if you study time the history of Tantra it's seen as something that was really sort of a seventh or 8th Century
49:30
A.D phenomenon this is that's wrong this is a pure teaching because this is sort
49:35
of saying that the most impure has Divinity within it and when you distresses the God has told him what to
49:43
do and you just just said no God you're wrong I'm not going to forsake that and
49:48
and and and the Divinity of the impure is revealed and with that he he's he has
49:54
perfected his moral intuition despite God trying to throw him off and saying
50:00
lose the dog he says God you're wrong I'm not abandoning this fellow creature
50:05
and with that he is perfected moral intuition and he's seeing with the God's eyes he's seeing the Divinity within the
50:12
impure he enters heaven wow
50:18
that is so great I love it so much because
50:23
you know in a way there's this this tendency I think in human beings to
50:29
look for answers outside of ourselves and so that that message there is to
50:35
really trust Within Myself what what is right like even this God is telling me
50:40
you know lose the dog but that doesn't feel right inside of me so what am I going to listen to I'm going to listen
50:46
to the external okay you know you and I might be asking that about the ethics of a certain
50:52
consumer purchase or something he's he's addressing this in the context of he sporked his whole life to get to heaven
50:59
and now he's got the chance for the singer and he's willing to sacrifice the
51:04
most important goal of his life for Dharma
51:09
and and and go against the word of God to fulfill what he sees as Dharma at
51:15
that moment so he's doing it in this like existential context of the opportunity to fulfill his life ambition
51:22
to enter Heaven he's willing to sacrifice it to do the right thing what's there too is I think the power of
51:28
the present moment right because there's there's a little bit of a conflict there of like you know all this time of
51:34
striving towards a certain goal and then being about to get there versus what feels right in the present moment
51:40
foreign Richard amazing to speak with you I love
51:46
this work that you're doing and it's it's been total pleasure to dive into some of this stuff
51:52
um with you uh what's the best way for people to to follow up learn about your book learn
51:57
more about you well if I have it down there can it does it show on the screen I've got the my escaping Maya's palette
52:04
see if people are watching the video but they might also be honestly so there's a I have the book is called escaping
52:10
Maya's Palace it's you know available online in the usual places and there's a I have a website escaping
52:17
myerspalace.com I have a my website is Richard's clove
52:22
dot com which also you can get to the book from there Richard one last question for you are
52:28
you having fun right at the this is fun
52:34
this talking with you is fun enjoying it too thanks so much
52:39
it's a pleasure thank you thanks for listening if you've enjoyed this content and think others might as
52:44
well please feel free to share and subscribe